Baroness Ritchie interview

Torrin Wilkins: Hello and welcome to the Centre Think Tank interview series, In Conversation. I am your host, Torrin Wilkins, the Director of Centre Think Tank. Today, we will discuss peace in Northern Ireland. This includes the future of the devolution settlement and how we can bring communities closer together. With me to explore these issues further, I am delighted to be joined by Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick.

Baroness Ritchie: Delighted to join you, Torrin, for our discussion about peace and its development, as well as the political process.  

Torrin Wilkins: Thank you.  My first question more than ten years ago at the Northern Ireland Foundation, you said, “We still live, we largely socialise, and are educated, apart.” Do you believe the situation has changed?  If so, how do you think we can improve it?

Baroness Ritchie: It was more than ten years ago. It was around 2009 when I was Minister for Social Development. Unfortunately, there has not been much real change. Peace may be more embedded, but deep division between unionists and nationalists is still there. It cannot be improved unless there is some trust at the centre of the executive between the DUP and Sinn Féin. Otherwise, you will always have those of them and us. We have to get over that, and it is about respect for political difference, parity of esteem,  and everything John Hume talked about in the evolution of the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) as we progressed towards the Good Friday Agreement.

Torrin Wilkins: How do you perceive the current situation in schools in Northern Ireland?  

Baroness Ritchie:  There has been a clamour for integrated and selective education. Children who still pass that test can go to grammar schools; others can go to secondary schools. I think the selection is wrong.  It puts both fear and the idea in a child that you are a second-class citizen because of your education. I went to a secondary school, but it did not stop me from going to university. I think there are many opportunities, and children should be allowed to benefit. The more pressure you put on a child with their education, the more it creates further future problems. I think you need to have an easy approach to education, as it is a lifelong opportunity. Part of improving our situation is about education and educating children together. That is the other issue, as most children are still educated apart. 

For example, I  went to a Catholic secondary school. Although I grew up in a rural community, I would have known people from a unionist perspective. But the first time I really got to know them was at  Queen’s University Belfast in 1976.  I realised that at the height of the Troubles they were like me; perfectly normal individuals who had probably the same educational and job aspirations,  though perhaps not the same political aspirations. But with my respect for that political difference, I am Irish and want to see a new Ireland. I also believe that it is my job as a politician, along with others, to persuade people from a different political perspective of the value of us living together.  You cannot create a new Ireland unless you allow Northern Ireland to work first.  You need to ensure there is respect for the political difference between unionists and nationalists. If you can work together, then it is easier, as you gain that respect,  mutual understanding, and people mature a lot better.

Torrin Wilkins:  Would you say the way forward is about mutual respect? Given that one of the things about living apart is that people will often not interact with each other, is there also anything else we can do to improve that situation and increase those community ties? 

Baroness Ritchie: I think we have to build civil society because people are part of groups outside government,  parliament and the assembly. Then they appreciate that people may have similar housing and health problems, alongside difficulties accessing health waiting lists and getting their children educated. They also realise the pothole on the road beside them is the same as one in a unionist community.  You have to think about what our strengths are, what unites us, and what the similarities are. Rather than thinking of your political aspirations, it is very important instead to look at our strengths, weaknesses and challenges, where you realise that we all have similar challenges and difficulties.

Torrin Wilkins:  Moving to the peace process, you are now chair of the Centre for Democracy and Peacebuilding. What can other countries learn from Northern Ireland and the peace process?

Baroness Ritchie: Other countries can learn from our peace. It was about resilience and the ability to stick at it when it looks doubtful, because of our peace processes and our all-night talks. In addition, it was about the introduction of external help, because we had facilitation from President Clinton and George Mitchell, who chaired the peace talks. 

We also maintained European Union membership.  For us, Brexit is such a crazy idea, because our peace, political process and the Good Friday Agreement borrowed from the European Union template.  We recognised that people with significant differences battling in the First and Second World Wars were still able to come together and form the European Economic Community.  There was much to learn. In fact, through the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB), we also gathered resources to underpin our political and peace process.  We also understood that many people at the top were required to buy in and commit to the process, alongside President Clinton.

During these difficult moments, there was the John Major Downing Street Declaration, working directly with John Hume and Albert Reynolds, who was then the Taoiseach in Dublin.  They all gave their absolute commitment, endorsement, and support. I think other people and other countries could learn from that.  

This is the one thing about the Centre for Peace and Democracy. It is about building peace and democracy, and what we can give from Northern Ireland and Ireland to other peace processes. Our peace and political process is very different to South Africa, the complexity of the Middle East, or Ukraine and Russia. But we can share our experience, while maybe informing and giving them confidence that it is possible.

Torrin Wilkins: In a previous interview, we spoke to Sinéad McLaughlin, MLA, who argued about the removal of the veto from the Northern Ireland Assembly. Sinéad said no one party should have a veto over another, while speaking at length about the deputy and first ministers, and as part of reform,  both having equal titles within the assembly.  Do you think those kinds of reforms would benefit the assembly, and would they be possible?

Baroness Ritchie: My colleague Sinéad is absolutely right. I agree about the vexatious veto. We should always have had joint First Ministers. There is a false perception, and this works for the DUP and Sinn Féin, that first outrank deputies. First, it only creates a divisive tribal contest for who can be top dog and unfairly damages smaller parties like the Social Democratic and Labour Party and the Ulster Unionist Party. 

In the last parliament in the Lords, we attempted to pass amendments. Along with Lord Empey,  my colleagues Colum Eastwood, Claire Hanna, and Stephen Farry, who was then an MP for the Alliance Party in the Commons, we campaigned for the government to realise both titles were equal. They cannot even order a packet of paperclips without the agreement of the other. That is very simplistic.  They also cannot sign a document or approve something unless it has each other’s approval, which means they are joint and equal.  Why not call them joint First Ministers? This would remove the problem that we encounter at every election, where all you hear is, ‘make me First Minister’.  What the election therefore focuses on is tribalism and division.  As a consequence, Sinn Féin assumed the poll because many nationalists and Republicans believed that it was the answer. But it isn’t because they have not delivered anything. They are joint and equal in every respect. We have to get rid of that veto and get back to that sense of equality and respect for political differences, which is what the Good Friday Agreement was all about. 

Torrin Wilkins: Given that the veto does not exist in any other part of the UK, what are some of its problems?  Why has it become such an issue in Northern Ireland?

Baroness Ritchie: No, the veto does not exist, including in the south of Ireland, either, because there are different political circumstances.

The First Minister acts like a Prime Minister, whereas the First and Deputy Ministers are equal.  By the election, the whole cry is, ‘Make me First Minister, make our person First Minister, so we get the top job’.  People do not realise that both jobs are interlinked and intertwined. It has always been the case that one person cannot sign off on a document or an executive paper without the other.  So it is that sense of triumphalism and majoritarianism (that we thought we would remove ), which still seems to be there. 

The veto has to go, with this sentiment also supported by the Alliance Party.  Removing the veto will help take the political heat out of the situation and ensure elections are not about constitutional issues for the assembly. They are about bread-and-butter issues, like the ever-increasing,  spiralling health waiting lists and the poor nature of our wastewater treatment systems. Looking at this, it needs to be dealt with, as permission cannot be granted for new houses because wastewater treatment facilities are insufficient and inadequate. 

Torrin Wilkins: Moving on to funding, with the Barnett formula for devolved nations across the UK,  Lord Barnett has said he thinks the system requires some reform and was originally a temporary measure. What do you think is required? Does the system need reform, and if so, what kind?

Baroness Ritchie:  The Barnett formula is inadequate. Our MPs have quite clearly stated that in the House of Commons, while  MPs from Wales and Scotland have made similar points. But I would say the agreement is fiscally on the 124% comparator is progress. 

Ultimately, after decades of neglect, violence and conflict, and focus on the veto, Northern Ireland’s infrastructure needs a lot more. For example, the new maternity hospital was built over 10 years ago, but has never opened. The infrastructure concern is not specifically health, even though health represents 46% of the block grant.

The budget has also not provided for essential investment in water.  Currently, treatment works do not allow connections for all the new housing required and for new schools.  In addition,  traces of Pseudomonas bacteria have been found in the water, which needs to be dealt with. I believe the system needs reforming, and I believe we should receive money based on need. While contentious,  we also need to think: if it is reformed and we acquire funding, is that sufficient to deliver services? 

I feel we are always a lesser priority. Our people earn less money than in other UK areas, even though they are doing equivalent jobs and have good qualifications. Many of them are university educated, and I feel they are probably better educated than in other areas of the UK.  Whenever I was Minister for Social Development, which is part of our benefits system, people worked for South East England and other UK regions. It was because of their resilience,  diligence, enthusiasm,  hard work and ability to deliver work very thoughtfully and accurately, not because of where they live.

Torrin Wilkins:  Finally, devolution in England is currently being expanded with new powers and new mayors. In Wales, the Senedd is also expanding, which includes new Welsh Parliament members. For the settlement in Northern Ireland, should there be greater devolution around funding and any other policy areas?

Baroness Ritchie: Normally, I  would favour maximum devolution, and politically, I would favour Devo Max. I do not think the DUP and Sinn Féin have the political maturity,  the even-handedness and sense of equality built into their psyche to govern more widely. Currently, I would not like to see them in charge of taxation or broadcasting because I am uncertain what might happen. Their mentality would seek to look after their communities, whereas we have to be more holistic. 

In addition, I want to see a new Ireland, and I think Brexit has forced that discussion further. The Windsor Framework is an excellent example of protecting our trade because we can access the single market for goods, but not for services. Essentially, we are not in it, but we can access it. We are also in the UK internal market, but the reality is that we need that for our protection. To ask for more power when two parties cannot agree on their own power, and they are not even-handed, I think, would be a little bit of folly.

Torrin Wilkins:  Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today, Baroness Ritchie.

Note: This interview has been edited for grammar, clarity, and flow. The original recording is the final and definitive version.