Sinéad McLaughlin MLA interview

Will Barber-Taylor: Hello, and welcome to In Conversation. I am your host, Will Barber-Taylor. Today I am delighted to be joined by Sinéad McLaughlin, MLA, a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly since 2020 and the Social Democratic and Labour Party spokesperson on jobs, the economy, and justice.

Sinéad McLaughlin: Thanks very much for asking me to come along. I am delighted to be here.

Will Barber-Taylor: It is great to have you on. The first question I would like to ask you is: you were the leader of the campaign in Northern Ireland against Brexit. Do you see any possibility of the UK rejoining the single market, like Norway and Iceland?

Sinéad McLaughlin: As well as being Irish, I see myself as having a strong European identity. I think a national consensus is emerging, at least among the public for now, and certainly in mainstream media. There has been a shift, and many people in Great Britain feel that Brexit has failed- we knew it was a mistake.

When I was the vice chair of the Remain campaign in Northern Ireland back in 2016, we understood that Brexit’s impact, particularly on peace and stability here in Northern Ireland, would be devastating, and it proved to be so. I was deeply involved in the campaign because of the context.

In Derry, it was clear that international trade in the UK would be heavily impacted, and that has become evident. The lies told to many, particularly in the business community, by the politicians and the leaders of the Brexit campaign, have unfortunately come to fruition.

The promises of major trade deals that voters were told to expect from the United States, China, and others have not materialised nor are they even on the radar. My understanding is that the trade deals that have been brought in replicate what we already had as members of the European Union. We have not seen any great dividends. In fact, the UK-Australia Free Trade Agreement, instead of benefiting us, is likely going to damage the UK economy, particularly for those working in industry.

Brexit has caused a lot of uncertainty for business investment. The Bank of England estimated that investment was almost 25% lower in 2020, 2021. It is unbelievable. The fact that mainstream media are beginning to question those who support Brexit is a great mindset, in challenging them with the question: in what way is it great? Where have we benefited? There is only silence in response. This is not just my perspective from Northern Ireland; many people in Great Britain also consider themselves to be European. Going forward, I would like to see closer relationships between all parts of these islands and the European Union. Do I think the political context in the UK allows those conversations to take place openly and honestly? No, I do not. There is a lack of stability, and meaningful conversations cannot be had.

I hope that after the next general election, there will be forces pushing to rebuild those relationships we had before Brexit, with our friends, business partners, and economic allies within the UK and the EU. Whether that is rejoining the single market, as membership in the European Union seems further away, closer relationships simply make sense. It is remarkable when other smaller nations ask, “What happened? Why did you do this?” It is the great unanswerable question because other nations are looking to build trade rather than cut trade as part of a domestic economic strategy.

I do think that there will be a movement on this in the not-so-distant future. As with many things in life, the public is ahead of politics. We are beginning to hear businesses, particularly big businesses, such as the car industry, saying, “Look, we have tried, we have done all the diplomacy, but this is not working. We have gone too far. The economy has retracted, and we need to get on a better footing.” The UK is poorer now than it was back in 2015 or 2016. Common sense has to prevail. Politics has gone down the drain. Party politics has played a much larger role than the country’s and its people’s politics. It simply has not worked for the nation.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. You mentioned that you were vice chair of the Remain campaign in Northern Ireland. We have seen the end of the political career of Boris Johnson, someone central to the Leave campaign. How do you feel about what has happened with his career? Do you see it as a consequence of his actions as a politician and of the claims he made during the campaign, which have since proved to be untrue? 

Sinéad McLaughlin: Boris has only ever been about Boris. It has always been a complete Boris show, and it has come to an end since he has been exposed. Unfortunately, it has taken longer than I would have liked. He has damaged relationships on this island, between these islands, and with our friends in Europe. The damage has been done to our country, particularly to the Good Friday Agreement. He put the stability of my island in jeopardy, and it continues to have a detrimental effect. I am not crying over Boris Johnson. He was the worst Prime Minister in history, and his legacy is shameful.

On the question of moving forward and the single market, I believe there is a pathway for Northern Ireland to rejoin the European Union as a full and active member. Northern Ireland has benefited magnificently from EU membership. The EU held our hands through the peace process over the last 25 years, when others turned away. They stood with us through European and peace-building funding. We would like a pathway back into that.

I am a nationalist, and I see many reasons for Northern Ireland to rejoin not just the single market but the European Union itself, for the unification of this island and the end of partition. We live in a world where we have to work together. There are only six counties in Northern Ireland. Brexit has driven some new trade relationships with all the islands. There has been significant growth in North and South imports and exporters. That has been beneficial for all of us. Businesses sometimes find a way of fixing things themselves. Brexit has accelerated that process.

We also have a unique set of circumstances here because of the Windsor Framework, which allows us the benefit of creating in two jurisdictions. For the UK and the EU, and for your listeners, this is unique. It is something that Northern Ireland needs to really get on board with and start working towards that competitive advantage, and attract investment. I am particularly confident about attracting investment into my city and region. Derry, in the northwest of Ireland, straddles the border in three areas. We are very close to the EU and UK markets. I want to maximise that competitive advantage. The bigger picture is that I want a new Ireland that is a fully fledged member of the EU. That is a route that I want back. I know that many people in Northern Ireland miss our European status.

Will Barber-Taylor: You mentioned Irish unification earlier. How do you think people feel about the idea of unification, given the changing circumstances since the referendum? Do you see it happening in the next decade? Within 10, 20 years?

Sinéad McLaughlin: I am not concerned about the timeframe. I am focused on the journey and the preparation. If Brexit has taught us anything at all, it is the importance of doing your homework, having a plan, and bringing people with you. It is about recognising the direction of travel, which is fundamental to how we in Northern Ireland are discussing the future. Hardly a week goes by without politicians engaging in some form of conversation about a new Ireland. Brexit accelerated these conversations and, without a shadow of a doubt, changed everything; it changed how people feel. The Republic of Ireland has gone through major changes as well. It has a thriving economy, more liberal social attitudes, which make the offering much more attractive.

Meanwhile, Northern Ireland has suffered from poor economic performance. Our productivity gap between ourselves and the Republic is around 35%, which is extraordinary considering we share a small island. Economic activity is very high here.

Our public services are struggling. The National Health Service is on its knees. If you join the waiting list for a hip replacement today, you will wait 10 years. It is unacceptable. We have real fundamental issues. The economic arguments for having a more joined-up approach are compelling. We already share some of our health services. The North West Cancer Centre serves patients from both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Cross-border cooperation already exists, and I believe we will do much more of it.

I am not calling for an immediate border poll, but circumstances are arising that mean people are moving in that direction. In 2022, the combined national vote share was 38.1%, the unionist vote share was 35.1% and the other vote share was 13.5%. Things are changing quickly, and we need to be prepared. That is why my party is committed to working towards a new Ireland, with a commission and clear principles. But a new Ireland must be inclusive. It must be home to the one million unionists who may be a part of it, ensuring they are not left behind. We need to bring families, communities, students and everyone forward. Ireland has changed north and south. We have to make it a home to the very many beautiful colours and flavours that all of those people are. That is the goal. I will not put a time limit on it, as it must be done properly and in unity.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely, power sharing has often faced difficulties in forming agreements between the parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Do you believe that power sharing is here to stay, or is another model needed?

Sinéad McLaughlin: I think power sharing is here to stay because it is the only way that this place actually works. Dominance of one tradition over another is never going to last. However, our party does believe that there does need to be a fundamental reform of our institutions. The Good Friday Agreement anticipated that institutions would need to evolve in order to meet the needs of our communities, and now is the time to do that. We cannot keep on having election after election and then breakdown after breakdown. No one party should have a veto over another. The most essential part of it is that we get back into the institution and then deal with the reform. We cannot say, “Right, we are going to reform and, through some kind of external process, it will take one or two years.” We can walk and chew gum at the same time. If those parties or any one party wants to remove themselves from the institutions, then they are free and welcome to do so. For example, allowing the Assembly to be formed with 60% support would allow it to deliver for the public, which is what matters. Reform is certainly necessary.

We should also deal with the conflict about the First and Deputy Minister roles. The roles are equal, and the titles should reflect that. Any structural elements that cause conflict should be addressed appropriately. We have just celebrated 25 years of the Good Friday Agreement. It was always a process, not a one-off agreement. It is about moving forward. Within the context of power sharing, the last 25 years were about building peace; the next 25 years need to be about building prosperity and a better future for all our people, particularly our young people. We have a situation in Northern Ireland where our biggest export remains our young people. Political instability drives them away. I am the mother of two daughters, and both live away. One is living in the Caribbean and the other is living in London. It would be very difficult for them to come home in the context of economic and political instability. As elected representatives like myself, it is our role to build a new vision for their future and their children’s future.

Will Barber-Taylor: What more do you think can be done to support the Irish language within Northern Ireland?

Sinéad McLaughlin: No language should be a point of conflict. Sometimes in Northern Ireland, you just have to take a breath and then go, “What is the matter with it?” The Irish language is important to many people on this island and deserves respect.

The first place to start is the Irish medium of education, which was once supported and encouraged. We should strengthen it and ensure the statutory duty to provide proper support is fulfilled. Our party has campaigned for several years for the rights of Irish language speakers to be respected. It is regrettable that we do not have an appointment for an Irish language champion or commissioner. That needs to move forward.

There is nothing to be afraid of the Irish language or of Gaelic more broadly. Education should be embraced, just as it is in Wales, where it enriches communities and cultures. It gives me great pleasure to see young people learning it in schools and communities. I have to say I have struggled with language myself; I struggled with my French. I think that is probably why I end up with the greatest respect for those who have multilingual skills. Ultimately, I wish this were not even a point of debate.

Will Barber-Taylor: As the SDLP spokesperson for justice, how have cuts to the justice system affected prisons in Northern Ireland, and what steps need to be taken to create a better justice system?

Sinéad McLaughlin: We are facing cuts across the board. The budget given to us by the Secretary of State has been extremely harsh. Cuts in the justice system are having huge impacts, particularly in our prisons and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. They have had to stop recruitment processes and training. This is really bad news, especially for community policing. The Secretary of State allocated just over £1.12 billion, down from £1.14 billion. That might not seem like a massive cut, but when you factor in the cost of living, inflation, and the cost of energy, which heavily impacts prisons, police stations, and their vehicles, it has a serious impact.

Our court system faces a massive backlog, partly because of the pandemic, and we have not recovered. Our prisons are nearly overcrowded. We have more prisoners now than ever. This puts pressure on the entire system. Our vision is a safe and shared society where people are protected from crimes and victims’ needs are met by the justice system, but funding cuts undermine that goal. 

We are particularly concerned about the funding for things such as the domestic and sexual strategy and the violence against women and girls strategy. These were commissioned before the collapse of the government. Because they had ministerial direction, they were able to continue in their development. The violence against women and girls strategy, for example, will be going out to public consultation at the end of this month, where there will be a 13-week consultation. After that, however, we need an actual plan, and we need funding to implement it. We have the highest level of femicide in Northern Ireland, the highest level of femicide anywhere in Europe. We had another young woman murdered, Chloe Mitchell, and we have severe issues with domestic abuse and violence. This is a complex area, but post-conflict has had an impact on our society, particularly violence against women and girls and domestic abuse. The police responded to 33,000 calls on domestic abuse last year. It is causing a serious amount of stress in our justice system. Women’s Aid has also faced funding cuts. We cannot fix these problems without proper resources.

There is a need for faster access to justice and stronger accountability. People are waiting for far too long for justice. That is the reality of what we are dealing with.

Will Barber-Taylor: We are coming to the end of the interview, Sinéad. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me. If people want to find out more about you and more about the SDLP, where should they go?

Sinéad McLaughlin: Our website is www.sdlp.ie. I am reachable through my Facebook page or by email at sinead.mclaughlin@mla.niassembly.gov.uk. If anyone contacts you directly, Will, please feel free to share my details.

Will Barber-Taylor: Thank you once again for coming on.

Sinéad McLaughlin: Thank you.

Note: This interview has been edited for grammar, clarity, and flow. The original recording is the final and definitive version.