Wendy Chamberlain MP interview

Wendy Chamberlain MP interview

Will Barber-Taylor: Welcome to Centre Think Tank’s interview series.  I am your host, Will Barber-Taylor, and in this episode, I am delighted to be joined by Wendy Chamberlain, MP for North East Fife, Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats and the Deputy Leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats. Welcome to the interview, Wendy.

Wendy Chamberlain: Hi, Will. Nice to be here.

Will Barber-Taylor: It is great to have you on.  The first question that I would like to ask is about the justice system in Scotland. Do you think that the justice system in Scotland, and more widely within the UK, should move towards a focus on rehabilitating prisoners?  How best do you think this can be achieved in terms of policy and convincing the public?

Wendy Chamberlain: Thanks, Will. The first thing I should say is that I have direct experience of the justice system from my time as a police officer. I served as a police officer in Lothian and Borders Police between 1999 and 2011, so I have seen the start of the criminal justice process. When we talk about rehabilitation, people on the right often argue that this means being soft on crime.  I would argue that, given my previous roles, that is not the case. I think rehabilitation is an important thing for several reasons.

Some criminals will never be released from prison based on the gravity of their crimes, nor should they be. Rehabilitation makes sense on so many levels. It makes sense from an economic perspective that, following a period in prison, or indeed a sentence which has not involved prison, we want prisoners to be rehabilitated into communities and contribute to the future. If we think just about prison or criminal justice only being about punishing criminals, I do not think we end up in a position where that is healthy for society. I think the economic cost in Scotland is estimated to be about £3 billion per year.

In terms of whether we are moving towards rehabilitation, and what that could potentially save the Scottish economy, we do not want people sitting in prisons with nothing to do.  This was one of the challenges during COVID-19. We want prisoners to be learning skills that will help them contribute to the economy going forward. Just a few weeks ago, I met with a charity, primarily focused on veterans, called Only a Pavement Away. We need to be working with employers to make them more open to recruiting ex-offenders because people need to have the opportunity to start again. One of the other things that we need to look at is people being incarcerated for very short periods and how much benefit that brings to the victims of crime, to society, and to the offenders themselves. We have seen an increasing number of people being held in prison who are remanded before trial.  Colleagues in the Scottish Liberal Democrats did an FOI earlier this year to say that those numbers have increased by 40% in the last three years.

We know there are huge challenges and pressures on the criminal justice system. It is not going to help anyone,  particularly victims of crime, if people are staying on remand for long periods before their cases go to court.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely.  Policing in Scotland is quite different to the rest of the UK, in that Police Scotland is one large police force, making it the second largest in the UK. In England and Wales, there are police forces, such as the Metropolitan Police Service, Lancashire Police, and so on, which are all different types of forces of varying sizes. Do you think that having one force, like Police Scotland, has made policing in Scotland more effective, and do you think that is something that the rest of the UK could learn from? Alternatively, do you think that there are an equal number of challenges and problems that come from having, effectively, one police force?.

Wendy Chamberlain: As you would expect from me, as a Liberal Democrat, it is not one or the other. I served in one of Scotland’s eight forces. I was not supportive of a move to a single force due to the impact on governance. I have always thought of policing as a three-legged stool where you had central government, local government and the chief constable. We have seen through some of the challenges in relation to the Scottish Police Authority, which oversees Police Scotland, that the removal of one of those legs has made governance more challenging. In fact, one of the previous chairs of the Scottish Police Authority said that the structures just could not work.

There have been improvements in that there is one force from the perspective of process simplicity. On the Scottish Affairs Committee, we have just done a couple of short evidence sessions about firearms licensing as a result of the tragic shooting in Skye. What was very clear is that the centralised firearms licensing process, with some degree of automation, has shown that Police Scotland is performing much better than other parts of the UK. I have to say, I think 43 forces in England and Wales is, quite frankly, nuts, even before you add the politicisation introduced by Police and Crime Commissioners – you do not get the benefit of economies of scale. The government talks about county line drugs, etc, but for me, there needs to be a proper rationalisation of police forces in England. Indeed, I think I have heard previous chief constables call for that. 

It would be remiss to talk about policing without referring to where the Metropolitan Police Service has found itself in recent years and months. I think there is a genuine question about the remit of the Metropolitan Police Service, particularly with some of the national counter-terrorism policing responsibilities that it has. We have a National Crime Agency, and I think there is a question to be asked about whether some of those responsibilities would better sit within the National Crime Agency, as opposed to the Metropolitan Police Service.

The final aspect for me is that there is clearly a need for leadership within the police service. It is funny, I felt very strongly when I was a police officer that you join as a police constable, and you go up through the ranks and gain a real understanding of the pressures of operational officers.  I do think there is a balance to be struck because that means that you are part of a culture for a long period of time. Clearly, what we have seen with racism, misogyny and related issues is that the culture, if not regulated properly, can be very damaging. I would be more open to thinking about the different ways that we recruit people in police leadership positions,s and fundamentally, I think we should always be asking the question of whether we need warranted policing powers to carry out different roles. There is absolutely no doubt that, after the financial crisis in 2008, there were forces that led to voluntary redundancies among police staff, but as a result, we have got police officers who are not employees, potentially doing roles that would be better done by somebody not wearing a uniform.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. Just thinking in terms of the tax powers in Scotland, do you think that Scotland should have further powers to raise tax revenue? If so, what tax powers would you like to see devolved to the Scottish Government?

Wendy Chamberlain: I think the challenge is around what the Scottish Government is doing with the powers that they already have. I am not somebody who feels particularly comfortable, as a pro-UK MP or an MP representing a UK party, to be described as a unionist. I would describe myself as a federalist. For me, one of the reasons why we are potentially seeing some of the budgetary cuts that the Scottish Government is going to be implementing is that, yes, but what has happened from a UK perspective and the failure of “Trussonomics” is also a factor. There is also no doubt that for a significant period, Scottish productivity has lagged behind the rest of the UK. What that means is that with the tax powers that Scotland already has, tax income is not being recouped. The tax rises that we have seen, such as higher rate taxpayers in Scotland paying 46%, are not the issue for me. The issue is that those taxes are being set to fill a fiscal black hole that productivity gains should be filling. I also think that council tax reform is something that the Scottish National Party called for before they were elected in 2007, and they have been in power since then. Why have they not made these changes? We are supportive of a land value system for that. We know the bands are out of date, along with other aspects of the system. We know the challenges that the current system presents.

The other question I do have as a Liberal Democrat about the Scottish Government and the way the Scottish National Party organise themselves, and maybe this adds to your previous point about Police Scotland being one force, is that there is a tendency to centralise to one function or centralise responsibilities to one area. There are areas where local authorities, for example, should be getting devolved powers for business rates. For example, what is needed in areas such as St Andrews or Leven is different from what is needed in Edinburgh or Glasgow.  Local authorities should have the power to determine that.  If we think about the UK from a purely fiscal perspective and about the pooling and sharing of resources, I think you have to think about where the best place is for powers to lie. In terms of VAT or corporation tax, those should sit within Westminster because we are seeing some of the challenges where divergence creates problems or potentially creates a fiscal flight, and so we have to be very, very conscious of that.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. Another big issue, nationwide,  is housing and in Scotland, we are seeing that a rent cap has been introduced for those who were renting properties. Do you think this will have a positive effect on renters, and should this be left in place permanently? Do you think that it is only ever going to be something that can be used as a temporary measure? 

Wendy Chamberlain: Yes, my SNP colleague who represents North East Fife, Willie Rennie, spoke in that debate. I think that the legislation is well-intentioned, but we have to be very wary of unintended consequences. It is great, particularly at this time, from a cost-of-living perspective for existing renters, but what does that mean for people who are trying to get into the housing market? I have mentioned St Andrews already, and I think that St Andrews is a very interesting place from a housing perspective: it is the home of golf, a tourism hotspot and is home to students, making St Andrews unique as a university in a town and the housing pressures that this creates. 

The reality is that there is no one right answer. I do have a concern that legislation around housing – multiple occupation, short-term rent increases – means that we end up with the wrong balance to respond to some of those challenges. I think there have been several places in Scotland where students have failed to secure accommodation for the start of their studies this year,r and I do think part of that has been a contraction of the rental market. That is not to say I do not think universities should be doing more. If they are offering places to students, they should ensure that they have the accommodation to meet those requirements. We have to ensure that people have a degree of choice. I am pleased that the legislation is for a limited period, and I think the right assessments need to be taken while it is in place. For all the concerns I have outlined, I can absolutely see why my colleagues in Holyrood supported it.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. Of course, in Scotland, one of the other great issues related to housing is holiday lets. Do you think that is something that you have particularly come across as a constituency MP?

Wendy Chamberlain: Yes. For St Andrews, absolutely, and that is what I am seeing. One of my concerns around houses of multiple occupation is that we have probably ended up in a position in St Andrews where we have some houses where they could have more than three or more students in that property, but a cap on multiple Houses in Multiple Occupation licences has meant that we have properties in the town where we have locked doors. As well as that, because of some of the requirements for those licences, people have moved to short-term lets. As always with these tourist areas, you need people contributing to the local economy year-round. The East Neuk in North East Fife is, I think, second only to Cornwall and the Lake District in terms of the number of second homes, so that also creates challenges in terms of public services.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. In terms of independence, which is an issue that is and will be continually debated in Scotland, how much of a feeling do you have that there is going to be an independence referendum soon? Alternatively, do you think it is something that the Scottish National Party will merely bring up every so often as a core part of their agenda?

Wendy Chamberlain: Yeah. C’est la raison d’être.

I have to say, I continue to be a bit perplexed by the Green Party because I did not think that independence was their raison d’être. I understand why they continue to call for it. I suppose, where we have got to post-2014, is that the extremes have become more extreme and they have become louder. It feels like we are more divided than we have ever been. Back in 2014, Nicola Sturgeon and others said they would not seek another referendum until circumstances had changed significantly. Now, you might argue that Brexit and so on have produced significant change, but what we have not seen is the movement in the polls. I do not think anybody could deny that if we were consistently seeing support for independence over 60%, a referendum would not be the right thing to do to confirm the settled will of the people. But actually, I think what we have seen from Brexit is that narrow results do not help anybody. I think what has been disappointing to see is that, in terms of the additional information that the Scottish Government has produced recently about their independence papers, it gives less information than in previous years. The most recent economic report is basically the Growth Commission report, without the data. 

One of the lessons of Brexit needs to be a degree of honesty in terms of what the initial difficulties would be. It is not a question of whether Scotland can be independent – of course it can. The question is whether it should and whether that is the best way to deliver the outcomes desired across the political spectrum. My husband is a member of the Scottish National Party. I have talked about this many times – how do we manage? Well, we have been married for 19 years, but part of it is that we want the same things in the vast majority of cases; we just have a different idea of how to get there, and I think it is a real shame that the debate has become as toxic as it is. One of the reasons why I am not a flag fan and do not feel particularly comfortable and have never felt comfortable in terms of that unionist aspect is that I just genuinely believe, as a liberal internationalist, in building bridges, not creating boundaries. There is a failure to answer some of the key questions. I think independence arguably becomes more difficult as a result of Brexit, not less.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. I would like to turn now to an issue that has not just implications for Scotland, but wider implications across the UK, which is carers. Carers often receive very little support from the government, despite helping family members or loved ones. How do you think we can better support carers and ensure that, if people wish to, they can remain at home with the support of carers?

Wendy Chamberlain: Yeah, well, you must have known that this morning I saw my Carer’s Leave Bill pass the Bill Committee stage in Parliament, so I will tell you a little bit more about that.

It was in the government’s manifesto, and they have not moved forward with it because they have not brought forward the employment bill that they promised. We have been waiting for it in the three Queen’s Speeches that we have seen, so it was an opportunity to take a piece of legislation forward when I came out with a private members’ bill ballot that would get government support, even though the Liberal Democrats’ policy is for paid leave.

The Carer’s Leave Bill will be the first time that,t on the statute books, unpaid carers will have the right to request time off from their employers that is unpaid. This will help in terms of balancing those caring responsibilities because what we do know is that working carers either take annual leave or take sick leave themselves. Some have supportive employers; I have spoken to many of them who already have policies that go above and beyond, and they can make it work, but we do see a lot of people who leave the workplace due to their caring responsibilities. When I was talking about my bill locally, trying to find constituents who could directly benefit from the bill was quite tricky because we had several carers get in touch with us who had given up work. 

I think the other big bits for me are Carer’s Allowance. I heard in the debate this morning that it has only increased by about £15 in the last 15 years. It can impact the benefits of the person you are caring for. There is a cap on the amount that you can work before you start to lose your Carer’s Allowance. This should be changed so people can work more before they lose it.

We have an economically inactive population in excess of 20%, despite such a tight labour market. We need to think about how we encourage people into the workplace. Lots of people do not think about it because often it is doing things for loved ones. We need to ensure that social care is better than it is and recognise that it is a chronic issue across the UK. From a casework perspective, it is something I deal with.

We need to think about some of the local services that we might better support. I have been closely engaged with Fife carers and young carers. Young carers, who are out of school, are not necessarily getting the opportunity to learn the skills that would even get them into work in the first place. I think the estimate of how much carers do and what the value of that would be to the economy is just incredible, and people do not do it for pay or recognition – they do it because they care.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. Now we have touched a little bit on the cost of living crisis briefly. How do you think we can most effectively support low-income families and those who are out of work? Obviously, one of the things that has been discussed a lot has been the benefits rising with inflation. Do you think that is something that we could do, or are there alternative measures? What do you think would be the best thing to do?

Wendy Chamberlain: It is interesting. I was in a debate yesterday in relation to the triple lock. It was a Labour opposition day, and we are consistent about the triple lock and about uprating benefits in line with inflation. It is important to remember that benefit uprating has already fallen behind because of decisions made by the government. Those on benefits are already behind in the first instance and there is absolutely no doubt as well that following the loss of the £20 a week from Universal Credit, there are some very clear figures showing that food bank use fell while the £20 a week was in place and is now increasing again, as well as the fact that there was no support for legacy benefits. 

One of the other hidden things is deductions from benefits, particularly government deductions. The amount of deductions that take place, where it is the government who have made the mistake in terms of the overpayments, I have found quite shocking. I had hoped that one of the potential positive outcomes of COVID-19 was the fact that there would be people who had come into contact with the benefit system for the first time and would have an appreciation of the system and its complexities. I do think within the general public that there is such an appreciation. I do think from a government perspective, there is just a lack of understanding that Universal Credit, for example, is an in-work benefit for many and that actually, we need to provide better support. We need to make systems simpler and easier to use. We need to cut fraud, and we need to be more compassionate.

I am co-chair of the APPG for Ending the Need for Food Banks, and we have made a couple of visits, particularly when we are in North East Fife, where we have seen the rural poverty premium. How much does it cost to take the bus to the Job Centre? You have to go and shop at the Co-op or in the other shop in the village, which is not as cheap as some of your big cost-cutters. Food banks are beginning to see reductions in their donations because the people who previously donated to food banks are now struggling themselves, and so it is not the safety net that it was. It does feel like we need to properly look at the level of benefits that allow people not be in poverty or destitution – it is the same for pensions. I did some quoting from the Pensions and Lifetime Savings Association yesterday about what they assess the state pension as needing to be to expect a standard of living. That is what we should be aiming to bring because I think if you do those things, then people, not pensioners (who will be able to return to the workforce), will be better placed to be able to do that.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. We are coming towards the end of the interview, Wendy. It has been great to have you on.  I do have one final question for you. In a month or so, we will be entering the festive season. So my final question to you is this: If you had to buy a Christmas present for Ed Davey, Keir Starmer, and Rishi Sunak, what presents would you buy for each of them?

Wendy Chamberlain: So I am probably going to be quite rude here! There is a website called Holy Flaps, and they do quite rude and irreverent mugs and cups. I have threatened to buy for Ed’s Chief of Staff one that says, “I am not a control freak, but you are doing it wrong”, though the real mug used stronger language. So I think I would probably find appropriate mugs from Holy Flaps – other retailers are available. In an MP’s office, you always need mugs.

Will Barber-Taylor: I think they sound like fantastic gifts, and I am sure each of them would most appreciate receiving a mug like that! Thank you once again for coming to the interview, Wendy. If people want to find out more about your work as an MP and more about your work in the Liberal Democrats, where should they go to find out more?

Wendy Chamberlain: Social media is probably the best place, but if you are a constituent or need help, it is wendy.chamberlain.mp@parliament.uk. On social media and Twitter, it is @wendychambLD, and you will find me there.

Will Barber-Taylor: Excellent, thank you once again for coming on.

Wendy Chamberlain: Lovely. Thanks, Will.

Note: This interview has been edited for grammar, clarity, and flow. The original recording is the final and definitive version.