Dr Somayeh Taheri interview

Will Barber-Taylor: Hello, and welcome to the Centre Think Tank interview series, In Conversation. As always, I am your host, Will Barber-Taylor. In this episode, I am delighted to be joined by Dr Somayeh Taheri, the CEO of Urban Chain. Welcome.

Somayeh Taheri: Thanks, Will. I am very delighted to be here and very excited about this opportunity.

Will Barber-Taylor: It is great to have you on. Now, the first question that I would like to ask is, yesterday, at the time of recording, we hosted an event on nuclear power. Do you think we still need nuclear power, or do you think we should phase it out at some point soon?

Somayeh Taheri: One thing about nuclear power is that I understand the worry people have about nuclear power stations. The thing is, nuclear power is changing a lot over time. Previously, we have seen large nuclear power stations being built, but there are technologies coming that allow us to build small, micro nuclear power stations soon. These have a minimal effect on the people around them whilst providing the same benefits as large nuclear power stations. 

Similar to when we have large solar or wind farms, which can make lots of noise for the people around it, having a small wind farm on, say, a farmer’s field, would not make that much noise while it produces energy. Nuclear power provides a great base load of energy that runs at any time that we want. The problem is that it cannot be switched on and off.

But again, this is only relevant to large nuclear power stations. When we talk about micro power stations, it would be a very different scenario. Nuclear power stations, by nature, provide ample power because they provide the base load that we want. However, many changes need to happen regarding their size, how they operate, and how they can contribute to the stability of our energy by reducing our dependence on Russian gas.

Will Barber-Taylor: Yes, because of how much dependence, particularly in Europe, there is at the moment for Russian gas, which, given the war in Ukraine, is a great disadvantage. You mentioned other forms of energy, renewable energy production, including wind and solar. How can the government best support renewable energy providers? Would it be through tax breaks or increased investment? What kinds of ways do you think the government can help the renewable sector?

Somayeh Taheri: I think that we have lots of things to think about. It is not just about deciding to install renewables and then saying, “Here it is, your renewable energy is installed.” There is always a limitation on the installation of renewable energy. The main issue is that the grid does not have enough capacity to accommodate renewables. 

By ‘grid’, I am referring to the network of transmission and distribution operators who lack sufficient capacity to accept renewable energy sources in all places. Scotland is doing better than England, but it still has a long way to go. So I would say the government needs to provide the physical infrastructure required to facilitate the installation of renewables.

What we are seeing specifically following the price fluctuations in 2020-2021 is that people are moving away from being just consumers of energy to becoming prosumers of energy, that is, producers and consumers of energy at the same time.  Consequently, they are very much interested in installing renewables such as solar on their roofs or investing in community power facilities like wind, hydro and solar farms. Anything, even owning a very small share of a wind farm, just by putting their money there. 

There are lots of American and European investors who want to invest in the UK’s renewable energy sector. But what is stopping them is the physical infrastructure required. So I would say to the UK government that the first step is to invest and upgrade the grid to allow this. The next step would be beginning the process of connecting new renewables to that physical infrastructure. At the moment, the process currently takes two to three years, but with a faster rollout of renewables, there remains space for the process to be managed much more effectively. Then we need to look at digital infrastructure, which means recording the volume of energy coming from renewables and seeing how much is consumed at different levels. Again, we do not have the infrastructure to do this at the moment.  

What I am trying to say is that whilst there is the financial investment in renewables through schemes like the Renewable Levy introduced this January, tax cannot be seen as the single measure to bring about change. The main factor is upgrading infrastructure. 

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. In terms of how the public engages with renewable energy, do you think that, as time goes on, more and more people are interested in where their energy comes from? Further, are the public more willing to change energy providers to ones that prioritise renewables than before? I ask this because it seems the publicise more concerned about not just the sustainability of energy sources, but also the environmental impacts of energy production. Put more simply, do you think the public is becoming more engaged with renewable energy and wants it to supply electricity to their homes?  

Somayeh Taheri: They do. The problem is that we humans are naturally unpredictable. When it comes to deciding to switch to renewables, despite our best efforts to support green power, when it comes to things like, for example, the cost of living crisis, we choose price over green credentials. Resultingly, when faced with the choice of being able to afford to eat, heat our homes and ourselves over claiming that we are ‘green’, we would choose the former because we have children or we have lots of other issues in our lives that we need to think about. 

But having said that, other factors may impact people. Yes, people are more environmentally conscious when there is a level playing field in terms of price between gas and green energy. When this is the case, people prefer choosing a green supplier, but usually, the green supplier is only ‘green’ insofar as it buys green certificates and does not actually supply renewable energy. That is what people mean when they mention ‘greenwashing’, they are put off by this kind of practice when suppliers claim their energy is green when it is not. 

Having said that, we need to make green energy affordable for all. If we make truly green energy, no green washing, traceable and affordable, then during a cost-of-living crisis, we could see a 70% reduction in bills for customers, which is significant. There are solutions to achieve this; the thinking behind people’s minds that “I want to be green, but I cannot afford to be green at the moment” is something that can be remedied as new models of supply enter the energy market. 

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. As I mentioned at the start of the interview, you are the CEO of Urban Chain, which supports those producing renewable energy and those looking to buy from renewable sources. How did you first start Urban Chain? What was it that made you want to start the company?

Somayeh Taheri: In 2016, I was a research scientist at the University of Manchester, working on energy poverty and climate. As part of my research, I looked at energy sector data and its infrastructure. What I found was shocking: renewable energy was being bought cheaply but sold to customers at up to four times the price. I was interested to see what contributed to this difference in price. I found there were many inefficiencies, many layers of buying and selling between producers and consumers. Resulting,y the operational margin at which energy was sold differed greatly from the pure price of the power itself.

In addition to that, I looked at the government policies regarding renewables. In 2000-01, the government had been supporting distributed and community energy resources. We had great momentum then, but until now, they have not financially viable. That made me think, what can I do to change this situation? When I looked at distributed energy generation, I thought of consumers only as consumers. The system we have now is very much centralised. In fact, we need a distributed system to enable exchange between generators and consumers in real time. That was the lightbulb moment because I realised distributed ledger technologies, blockchain, and now AI could provide the needed infrastructure to develop the system we have now. 

Will Barber-Taylor: And of course, it is something that sets you and your company apart compared to others. Have you seen interest in Urban Chain being generated from people asking questions or visiting your website? Have you seen exponential growth over time, and how has interest evolved since 2016? Or do you think there has always been a sustained amount of interest because of people being concerned about climate change and the source of their energy?

Somayeh Taheri: Yes, initially, when we entered this market, many people did not know how the system worked. It is a very conventional mindset to view the market as between people, operators, and stakeholders. And at that time, Innovate UK was just beginning to fund innovative projects in the energy sector.

Ofgem looked to set up a group called Ofgem Innovation Link, supporting innovators to navigate the energy regulatory framework. Omexom was also looking at how it could change the future of the energy market. When we said what we wanted to do, many people said it was too good to be true and did not believe we could do it. But consumers and generators recognised the value of our idea. They were like, “Oh, this is what I want. This is the missing piece of the puzzle in the energy market. But I need proof. So looking back, we had interest in our business model, and we had supporters who followed us for seven or eight years to this point and were very excited about our plans. 

We worked with Ofgem Innovation Link and received grants from Innovate UK to get us running. The government also supported us significantly on this journey in setting up the regulatory framework that made this possible. As you said, the number of people following us has grown exponentially. Not just because we are green, but because we provide affordable green energy. When green energy becomes mainstream, gas becomes the secondary provider in the market rather than the way it is now. 

Will Barber-Taylor: In terms of renewable energy, one of the things that people often talk about is battery storage. This is quite often seen as one of the largest hurdles for the renewable sector. How do you think we can best increase battery storage capacity and make it such that batteries can store more energy and store it for longer? 

Somayeh Taheri: Battery storage is a great technology. My only worry is the recycling of the batteries and their lifetime impact on the environment as a whole. 

But what I can say is batteries come in different forms and shapes, designed for different storage durations and purposes. Again, similar to nuclear energy, battery innovation is moving quite quickly, and they are getting much, much better. They are still expensive; the price is dropping, but they remain unaffordable. 

Another thing about batteries is that we should not see them only as large power storage solutions. There are huge opportunities for micro-batteries for households and small businesses. The technology does need to be upgraded, more efficient and smaller in size. There also remains the issue of batteries being able to store and release energy when it is needed. In summary, the technology overall needs to improve.  

Will Barber-Taylor: Do you think in terms of the UK renewable energy sector, there is anything that we can learn from other countries on how best to move forward with increasing our ability to host and produce renewable energy that would allow us to move more easily and much more quickly towards the net-zero goal?

Somayeh Taheri: Interestingly, many countries look to the UK as a model. I would say we are in quite a good position compared to other market players. So, yes, we can learn from how the interconnectors work in Germany or how the nuclear power plants work in France. We can learn how to maximise the use of renewables at the community level in Spain or in other places. We can learn from all of these, but overall,  I would say we are in a good position. But there is always room for learning.

Will Barber-Taylor: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to speak to me, Somayeh. It has been great to chat with you. If people want to find out more about Urban Chain, where should they go? What is the website address?

Somayeh Taheri: Yes. Visit us at urbanchain.co.uk. Please use our contact form; once we receive an email, our customer relationship managers will come back to you. We are happy to answer your questions, and I welcome you to join the peer-to-peer energy exchange. 

Will Barber-Taylor: Fantastic. Thanks again for taking the time to speak to me.

Note: This interview has been edited for grammar, clarity, and flow. The original recording is the final and definitive version.